Toronto Photography Meetup Group

Just came across this researching a possible trip to Belize. It was relevant to this thread. Not trying to argue any side of the coin here but it's all online. You don't have to go to coral reefs and pay thousands of dollars and you don't even have to visit a pool in Scarborough. IF you have the time and inclination it's available online for free.

http://www.elasmodiver.com/Shark%20Phot ... sition.htm

Is it good idea to go on one of these photography trips? It's up to the user to decide. For some people the internet just isn't the way to learn. Some need to have the hands-on experience of a teacher, structured environment. That experience is invaluable (and they pay through the nose for it). Some don't have the time to research and scour the net for that information. This is money weell spent for them. On the other hand, many can find what they want faster and cheaper online and learn at their own pace at home. People have different learning preferences. Vive la difference.

As soon as they talk about the rule of third and chopping off a leg you kind of know they are talking crap the same stuff you should get out of a beginners course, my point wasn't about online versus off line learning that has been done to death. My point was about being in the real environment, maybe learning something new regarding photographing that environment, not getting your head bite off in the case of the sharks. If you going to photograph botany in the amazon basin your internet learning is not going to help much unless it's all labelled along a path in a park. Sure you can learn Spanish in Toronto but it's not the same experience as in Granada.

Of course a destination course isn't for everyone but good ones can be a great way to learn and explore a new environment. There is plenty of positive feedback form some that I know of even here in boring Canada.

OK I concede your point. Learning how not to get one's head bit off by a shark or not wander in to a patch of obscure poisonous bromeliads isn't really a photographic issue or skill. It's knowledge more specific to marine biology and botany than it is to photography. I agree these are important things to know, daresay essential things to know. But one can still learn them in a new environment (and probably cheaper) outside of a photography course. But combining them could be beneficial, though more expensive. So yes, you are right, one can always envision obscure scenarios where one needs some additional knowledge outside of the stuff rhommel and potatoEYE (past posts) deem best learned for free at home.

Applying photography beyond the basics I hope is not an obscure objective but is the essence of photography. Even taking the Magnum photography workshop in Toronto taught a friend of mine (she was already a good technical photographer) some essentials about street photography and news photography that you don't learn walking the Internet. It also gave her the focus to actually get into journalism photography.

If you consider photography an isolated skill set then of course everything is reduced to basics and costs. But it is photography associated to the wider world (and I don't just mean travel) that interested most people.

Photography as a purely technical subject is both boring and obscure. It's only when photographic skill is combined with a subject that photography transcends the mediocrity and the banal.

I will concede that you can read up on basic photographic techniques from the safety of your own computer.

I get it. Because one of photography's masters once gave seminars years ago then photographic seminars MUST be good. Yes, yes well argued. Wait, there's more. You remind everyone that PotatoEYE could learn a thing or two from the master. That's another reason put forward to debunk his belief that one can learn photography's basics at home and apply them elsewhere. Another well reasoned proposition.

Sorry potatoEYE - apparently you'll have to do a photosafari if you want to take a good photo of the Great Pyramid and not fall down a sand trap. And if you want to be a photojournalist you'll have to take a course. Bravado, creativity and ability to apply your knowledge across different genres won't do.

Specious arguments like yours don't last 5 minutes in a court of law. Consider a similarly constructed argument:

I think PotatoEYE is correct. If you learn the basics and tricks of photography and have a vision, then you don't need courses, all you do is buy a ticket and grab your camera...apply what you learned. Ansel Adams and hundreds of excellent self-taught photographers never learned their trade by going on photographic courses in NYC.....and He could teach even a guy/gal like Metrix a bit about photography.

Please read everything I said before you quote me out of context. Also the topic is about the value of attending a photographic workshop not about learning photographic techniques at home.

Hundreds of expert self taught photographers does not a world make. This is not about people that are self taught. It's about people that want to learn something while away on a trip with guidance from an expert. I clearly stated that that workshops for basic techniques are not what I'm talking about. Also it is clear from replies above and the success of many workshops that some people are interested in these type of workshops. I didn't say all workshops were good but some are.

Ansel Adams never stopped learning about photographing he did this by working in the field not from the Internet. Also every year for much of his life he gave field workshops anyone including myself would be lucky to be able to attend one even an expert in law (I hope not self taught) such as yourself.



This was not an argument even if you would like to see every comment I make as one. This is definitely not a court of law. It's just a discussion. If you happen to not believe they have any value because of your vision and skill
thats OK your not forced to go on one.

As for PotatoEye he can take care of himself, why don't you come out on one of the walks we both do and show us those photography tricks you talk about we might both learn a thing or two about photography,

What a curious and provocative afterthought.
Why did you write that? You'll concede as far as 'Basic' techniques being available on the internet. I am coming across plenty of photographic techniques far beyond my grasp on the net as well as on this very forum. Are the techniques I am reading about on this forum merely basic? You won't concede that one can read up on advanced photography techniques on the web, not even in this forum? Really? OK.

Why is 'safety' being brought in to the discussion now? Safety seems completely irrelevant up to this point. So why was that word included, if for no other reason that to be condescending?
OK it's late, goodnight - Metrix forgive me if i appear angry. I am not. I am just confused.

Strange that you should take my statement about learning basic photography on net as all exclusive. Of course you can learn more advanced techniques on any subject that is if you have the basic knowledge, skills and aptitude to understand. The more obscure skills like brain surgery are best practised IRL or on a accurate physical simulator before being applied to a live patient.

Lighten up and connect the dots, there are no shark attacks from the safety of your computer screen at least not the physical type.

I don't get what the big deal is. A lot of artists apprenticed with other artists when they were starting out. It's one way to learn things. Similarly, with a workshop, you have someone who has more experience than you teach you things that he/she learned/discovered when he/she was at your level.

Maybe the teacher will look at your photos and say, "Why don't you try looking at things this way?". Sure, maybe you would have figured the same thing out by posting your photos in the Critique forum and pray that someone would say something other than "that corner is blown out", but by the time you post the photo and get a decent critique, you might not be on location anymore. Also, it's such an experience to see a professional at work. And no, watching a Youtube video that he posts is not the same as the real live thing.

I came across a site about shark photography, remembered that very subject was mentioned in a TPMG thread, so I posted it there. Look, I was only suggesting that much of what one learns in these workshops is also available online. I didn't suggest workshops are a bad idea. I didn't suggest everything was available online. I simply stated that much of the info in workshops may be available online or other ways. It's just there for anyone that wants it. It's an additional option to workshops. Not a better option, just another option. I stated clearly that workshops can be good for people. I thought I was adding to the knowledge base here, and not trying to convert people about workshops. In fact I don

I think we need that cute kitten right about now...

You ask two questions I answer 2 questions and then you accuse me of babbling and making thinly veiled insults. I must say you are a master of the thinly veiled insult.

HA HA Good question....I've met Metrix in person and he seems a genuinely kind, friendly and helpful person. I just don't completely understand his written posts. I had hoped to understand why he wrote what he wrote. I wasn't sure if it was to be taken as an insult. Maybe it isn't. I asked. It wasn't explained - all I got was a reason why he wrote it. Apparently it was because of some insult I wrote.
I can't figure it out.
But bring on the kittens!! PLEASE!!

i'm on my way~~~

Thanks....GREAT shot!!

uh, the effect if that kitten has already worn off ....do you have another one?

here's another one~~~

ok, ok AAAAAW Thanks guys. I'm good now
FYI - and don't misinterpret this as an insult or anti-felinic statement, but I DO prefer puppies

What about the small segment that hates kitten pictures? How about some bunnies?

I DON"T hate kittens - don't ask me anything about anti-felinism!! That's hilarious, why do you people try to get me embroiled in discussing topics in which I clearly have no stated interest?

off topic! off topic!

I was referring to myself. I wanted bunny pictures.

ROTFL!! - your avatar goes well with that message.

Boy, can't you see the "Killer" in those eyes??!!
Well, to get this back on track, this one has always interested me ... saving pennies and Euros to get there one day!!

http://www.petercox.ie/photography_courses.php

In general, I agree that you can learn the basic principles at home, but a lot of the great images taken in the past century are based, in large part, to being there.... either just THERE, or being there at the right place at the right time. Whether it is in the Himalayas or Ireland, or deepest, darkest Africa... or right here in TO.

That's a pretty good itinerary to follow!

And the fellow's work looks pretty darn good! I was in Ireland a few years ago and it is an absolutely beautiful place. And the whiskey is pretty darn good too !!

Interesting that people all ways bring up the cost issue so to stay on topic:

Take this shark photo workshop for tiger sharks. About the same cost I would have to pay if I was just diving on location with a reputable dive outfit. Online research goes a long way towards differentiating reputable from non reputable.

Disregarding that after the great white shark the tiger shark is considered to be the second most dangerous shark I would still very much like to take this workshop. Sure if I was an experienced underwater photographer I might cut out the workshop part but I'm not. So personally if I am ever in that part of the world again I would be very interested in learning first hand how to photograph these wonderful creatures. Sure I will understand the basics before I go. In fact I already do

http://www.woodburnphoto.co.za/Underwater/DSLRhousingworkshop/tabid/14631/Default.aspx

Read further that just the theory evening part held prior in the city, not the hands on location dive and photo review part.

The second part is the 2 days on location focused on photography with one shark dive plus 2 other dives. More shark dives are optional at a very reasonable cost considering what I normally pay for dive boats with an experienced dive master. The point is that it's focus is on underwater photography rather then just diving.