Toronto Photography Meetup Group

Like many of you here, I grew up shooting film SLRs. I've never used a rangefinder. But something happened to my wonderful Pentax K1000 once it went digital, much like the Canon AE-1, it grew in all dimensions, and became the fatty we have to deal with today.

Before everyone jumps the gun on mentioning the Micro 4/3 system, I must stress that depth of field and that "pop" you get from shooting the entire area of a 35mm film can't be replicated on a sensor a quarter of the size.

I've been shooting the 5D for a while now and it produces absolutely wonderful images. My EF mount glass is next to faultless and I'm very, very happy with almost everything this system offers. Except for size. During the day, I can carry my 5D + 24-105 F4L combo and have a very versatile system that can be reduced in bulk and converted to night photography with the relative ease of snapping on the 50mm 1.4. But then, the rather unspectacular focus system of the 5D starts going a bit wonky and manual focus is a must in most dimly lit environments. No problem, I'm used to it. But it's still too damn big and heavy. By the of the day, I just want something simple and discreet.

Enter micro 4/3. Lets disregard for a second that the system has a small sensor and will never be able to deliver F1.4 depth of field (35mm equiv). The Panasonic GF1 + 20mm pancake combo is impressively small and light, however it possesses another caveat that I can't live without - an optical viewfinder. I've used this in combination with the Panasonic electronic viewfinder, and I'm sorry, I'd rather use the rear screen. I hear the Olympus equivalent is vastly superior, but the reason I could never get used to the Panasonic G1, was because I need an optical viewfinder and find that a digital image distances me too much from the subject.

There's no pleasing me, I know.

So, enter the only compact, full frame camera on the market, that every photographer that has ever used waxes endlessly nostalgic about at every opportunity. Never mind the roughly 10 grand I'd need to invest to get in to the system, the camera itself is under-featured in so many ways, it's a wonder they manage to sell even one of these. No AF, no metering, no movie mode, rather poor high ISO, expensive. What's to like?

Yet, like I stated earlier, full frame sensor, very compact, fast operation. All of my requirements met, now, how will you be paying, sir?

PLEASE. Tell me I don't need this. Please tell me there's something else out there or on the immediate horizon that will make the Leica a dumb purchase. Please.

My wallet thanks you in advance.

-phil

Yes. Save your money. A full frame sensor on a compact body that is reasonably priced, with all the features you want, will come in the future .. don't know when but the technology is there. I am longing for this as well.
My advice? Patience is a virtue - it will come .. eventually. In the meantime enjoy your 5D, as do I.

Speaking with no experience whatsoever: the M9 is not particularly suited to sports and long-lens wildlife photography; you will find difficulty in attaching long lenses, and focussing them accurately. The frame rates are not amazing. The M9 is not weather resistant(?)

I'd think you'd be continually worried about theft when carrying around that much gear.

What kind of photography do you do?

Having said all that though, I must admit that I've been liking the Leica design aesthetics. Fortunately for me, I can't afford one for now.

I think the way to do it is to audition the rangefinder system with an older, used film M series camera. That way, if you don't like it, the damage is much more contained.

If you've never used a RF, consider buying a used meterless leica M3 (best for 50mm) or M2 (better for 35mm), one lens and 50 rolls of film. The M3/M2 should only cost $700 a good 35/50mm lens will run you $300 (or up to $4000 if you want the 35/1.4 asph). The M3/M2 is more compact than the M9 and if you decide to sell it to get out of RF or to 'upgrade' to M9 then you'll be able to sell it without much of a loss (if any). The 35/50mm lens can also be easily sold or you can use it on a M9.

You can get a FF RF experience for the cost of film, chemicals (or processing). This is the cheapest way into compact, discrete, high IQ photography.

The M9 will be worth $1000 less in a year if you decide it is not for you. Personally I think it doesn't make much sense to invest in leading edge digital imaging technology (bodies) unless you make a living with them and can claim a capital cost allowance. Many 'pro's rent the best equipment rather than own due to depreciation (rental fees can be fully deducted).

Good luck whatever you decide.

Phil,

Ken Rockwell's take of a Leica man:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/leica-man.htm

I say, go for it!

Sabesh

Rangefinder viewing is a completely different animal from the SLR through the lens view. you better make sure damn sure you like it before investing the big bucks.

I've owned Leica rangefinders and well as a Fuji medium format rangefinder. I never got used to them and far prefer the ability to see the exact depth of field and frame that the lens sees.

So before you make an expensive leap, try a relatively inexpensive Voigtlander rangefinder film camera or a used Leica M series and use it for three to six months and see if you like rangefinder shooting. Then you can answer your own question.

I'll happily stick to my lightweight Canon XSi, it's lighter in weight than a M9 and cost a few pennies less.

There's also the M8. Far more affordable than the M9 if you're into the Leica size and want to remain digital.

How often do you actually shoot at F1.4 with a full frame depth of field?

How much other gear would that money buy you?

How much are you swayed just by the Leica name?

don't do it!







ya, I have no reasons why not to.

buy it buy it! Let me borrow it!

+1

On the other hand, have you considered getting an optical viewfinder for GF-1? Google it and there are people "modifying" Oly VF-1 to work on GF-1 and voigtlaender spring to mind.

You don't need it, you just want it, how you fullfill your desires is really up to you

Thanks for everyone's responses!



Quite a lot at night. I don't use flash, so every bit of extra light helps and the usually slow shutter blurs things just enough for the extra DoF on faces to not really matter.



SO MUCH! That's why I'm very hesitant.



Not at all. I'm swayed by compact size, full frame sensor, German engineering / manufacturing. Do I think it's worth the asking price? Heck, no. But then again, who am I to judge?



The M8 and 8.2 need a cumbersome IR filter and are a 1.3x crop, and it's not like they're flying off craigslist at 2K. If I'm already spending this much money, I may as well go for the latest and greatest.



I hadn't considered that, but with no link between the optical viewfinder and the optical focus mechanism, how would I know what the camera is focusing on? No, a viewfinder for these cameras needs to be either integrated into the body, or linked in some fashion to the lens focus assembly.



You're absolutely right Peter. But I also want a full frame compact, like I had in the film days and the Leica seems to be the only thing on the market.

I make money doing concert and live music photography as well as the occasional portrait, band studio shoot. I have the pro gear for that and it works great. What I need is something for travel, for the everyday, for street / photojournalistic style that I so like doing with my 5D / 50mm or 30mm combo. I just want that same combo in a much more discreet package.

Again, thanks for all the replies.

-phil

People throw that word "discrete" around a lot.

It's often used when it comes to using rangefinder cameras but mostly, if not always, with the Leica brand name.

Before I explain what my take is on that whole "discrete" thing I would heed Ken's advice above.

That said, your desire for the M9 does make some sense - for travel, the rangefinder format does offer a nice compact package. I took the M8 on a 2008 trip to Australia. I enjoyed using it with the various lenses and I could take a couple small P&S's (LX3 & Fuji F50) along too without weighing me down.

Now, back to this whole "discrete" thing.

Go take a walk along the street, say, downtown. Don't take your camera (or take your camera... it really makes no difference). Take a look at the people taking photos. See what they're using. The bulk of them would likely be using P&S cameras, held at arms length. Now, see if you can find people using SLR's (digital or otherwise). Look at how they use their cameras. Note the size of them (the cameras, not the people *LOL*).

Now.. with the SLR folks, take a look at what they're shooting and see if people on the street don't avoid getting into the photo.

I would hazard a guess that the bulk of the people using SLRs and trying to shoot "street" scenes don't always get what they want; not because they are using "larger" or "heavier" cameras but because the moment one takes a camera, and raises it to their eye to peer through a viewfinder (be it an SLR or Rangefinder), everyone else in the nearby vicinity knows that the person with the camera is about to take a photo.

So much for being "discrete".

Now, if you're meaning to go into a church or place of worship or a funeral home and take photos; then I would say, ya, the M9 (or any M) would be better than an SLR.

But out on the street?

You're better off acting like a tourist with a P&S at arms length if really want to "blend in" and be discrete.

Again, that's just my take on it based on what I've seen. It doesn't stop me from using my M7 on the street but, lately, I prefer using a Rolleiflex because it slows everything down for me and, really, I still get the street scenes I want.

Cheers,
Dave

I think you guys mean "discreet", not "discrete". No wonder I was so confused reading this thread.

You math bonehead

(word origin of "discrete" is from "discreet" though...)

Dave

Wasn't there someone who posted a similar question on here last year that bought and M8, lenses etc and ended up selling the whole kit soon after? That discussion is probably searchable.

the M9 is different, it's FF ;P

You should really buy it if you have the funds. As you prob. know, best digital Leica so far!

Imagine the pics you can make with this baby!

That being said, like all technology (cars, computers, tv's, camera's, cellphones) there's always a new product every year. You gotta buy it sometime and sell it before the new ones come out!

Rent a digital Hassy for a week, and then you'll be very happy to come back to the 5D.