Toronto Photography Meetup Group

With the recent announcement of the new 70-200f2.8 MKII lens, I've seen a number of folks complaining on other forums that the new lens is heavier than the MK I version. Uhmmm, it's 20grams heavier... the weight of an average chicken egg. So I guess that may have sparked my curiosity a bit.

For some time now I've been reading a lot of remarks about lenses and bodies being too heavy. Every one wants lighter lenses that's a given but we know that's not always the case in the real world. You want a fast lens, you sacrifice weight and size to get it. Then there are people buying an f4 version over an f2.8 solely because of the difference in weight and size and not because of the cost savings and image quality.

Now my questions, just to get some general insight here:

Q1. If you were to go on a photo trip or say a TPMG event (assume you're not making money on this), are you the type to sacrifice some small comfort for that once in a lifetime shot because you took more lenses/gear than you think you'd need OR does comfort come first and if you don't get the shot, "Oh well, no big whoop" ?

Q2. How seriously do you take your photography?

-Serious: "I'd spend 10mins or more on setting up to get that perfect shot."

-Avid: "I enjoy it and I'll take a couple minutes or less to take a shot and then move on to the next one."

-Hobbyist: "I like taking the odd pic but if I miss one, it's not the end of the world."

Keep in mind, all things being equal ie. you buy lenses and bodies based on your needs, not wants and sorry if this sounds like a rant. It's not meant to be one. I'm honestly just curious.

For me, I'm always willing to sacrifice comfort for gear. I'd gladly take my heavy backpack with all the lenses I think I'd use because I don't want to miss that shot. I guess I'd consider myself a pretty serious photographer.

One of my brother-in-laws on the other hand likes photography and likes taking sharp images but hates carrying around his SLR and even with just one lens. He says his arms get tired and and has now bought his second P&S camera because it is lighter than an SLR. For lack of a better word, I'd say he's on the lazy side but he's very good when he used his SLR. Sometimes he gets frustrated that he can't do half the stuff he can if he used his SLR yet he carries the P&S.

Me on the other hand, when I do my photo trips, I'm usually lugging a 20+ pound camera backpack along with a tripod and this is in 30

I always carry my full gear each and every day wherever I go. I will always go for the shot instead of comfort and have no problem taking my time to set up a shot.

I don't believe it's worth hurting yourself just for a picture. I've been buying lighter lenses, I replaced my main one with one that covers the same range but weighs 185g less, and I use a 500mm catadioptric lens instead of my full length 400mm lens.

Even when I bought my first dSLR I waited over a year to get a lighter body (I was used to a much lighter SLR body that I had used for 20 years; most dSLRs are very oversized and overweight). Finally two years after that the manufacturer I use came out with a body that's the size and shape of the SLR I was used to, but by that time I had gotten used to the bulkier/heavier cameras and the smaller body was too small!

When I injured my hand I switched back to my ultrazoom until I healed (I used the ultrazoom before the right dSLR came along).

Would having a bigger camera body and heavier lenses gotten me shots that I haven't got...of course not because it's the photographer, not the tools that matters!

A1: I always decide (based on the event) what shots I will want to take, and what to take with me, and if it's worth it to take additional equipment. These days my focus is on wider and fisheye, so I will leave my 80-300 or longer at home.

A2: Avid, BUT due to the amount of years I've spent shooting I don't spend the time thinking, I let my instinct direct me...I couldn't imagine having to waste 10 minutes for a picture (unless I'm doing sunsets which I have no point but to wait). I can handhold for a few seconds on wide and down to 1/50th with 500mm, so I don't even bother with a tripod anymore.

It depends, but generally comfort is just as important.
I usually take what I think will be needed, for fashion I will take full car of stuff, for landscape I will take the tripod, but for most of my personal projects (which one could relate to street or abstract photography) it's usually one camera and 50mm and wide lens, that's it, sometimes just one lens. I would strongly consider p&s if I could get shallow dof with that. Thankfully I have no interest in bird photography

The solution is: get a leica.

1) Depends on the event. When I go to the track, I have virtually everything I own with me. That way I can always go back to my four-wheeled camera bag and get what I need. On me, at those times, I'll generally have two bodies with telephoto lenses and a standard zoom, along with double the batteries that I expect to use in the course of 8-10 hours.

If I'm on a walk or motorcycle ride then I'll generally have one body and two lenses; standard zoom and telepohoto. I learnt my lesson when I took a ride in Alabama thinking that I was only going to get landscape shots, then came upon a couple of hundred herons on rocks, in the middle of a river. DOH!

2) Seriously when I'm at the track or a motorcycle related event (show, charity ride, etc.). Not so much otherwise.



Or a PEN Digital. I did.

To me personally I bring everything I own .. 99.9 percent of the time I never use it but theres always that .01 percent of the perfect shot .. Id much rather lug my stuff around with the chance of getting a once in a lifetime shot

I am a amateur/hobbyist, therefore I buy the lenses I want (and can afford).

That being said, I try to get the best lenses and I try to get as much gear as possible with me when I know I'll have some opportunities to shoot. I will always sacrifice some comfort to increase the chances to get a good shot. But hey, I drive a standard car and that is by choice as well.

On the other hand, it is not always possible to have the big guns available all the time so this is where a P&S comes in handy.

I'm a hobbyist, I'll shoot with whatever is in my hands. I'm happy with cell phone quality pictures if it gets the job done, but it's not the end of the world for me if I don't capture the picture of life time.

However, comfort probably comes first for me. I can't wake up at 3am to take sunrise pictures.

Q1: Remember the movie Unforgiven?
When it comes to gear, I guess I follow Clyde's philosophy from the movie.
When Fatty quipped "Jesus, Clyde, you have three pistols and you only have one arm for Christ's sake." Clyde responded with this little gem, "Well I just don't want to be killed for lack of shootin' back."
Exactly, if, you know, instead of pistols he had camera gear and instead of being killed he meant not capture the image I desire.
That being said, I've been to spots where carrying less gear would have made the trek much more enjoyable and less of a workout (Yanacocha, Machu Picchu, etc). Also, there are times when I bring one camera and one lens and challenge myself to get some nice picks with the single set up...
Q2: I'd be avid...I'm in this purely for the fun of shooting...and I would spend as much time as I could setting up the shot, but most of the things I shoot aren't willing to wait for me

But there's the other side of the coin...you can have TOO much equipment with you to the point where you miss photo opportunities because you are "lugging" everything you own around!

That's why I prefer to travel lighter than to take everything I own with me! These days with high-MP cameras you can significantly crop and enlarge to simulate an image you would have gotten with a longer (much heavier) lens.

This is awesome feedback. Thanks.

I've got about 18+yrs of collecting equipment so there's no way I'd take all that I've got. I'd normally research where I'm going, note the points of interests, try and find pics of the surroundings etc to get a feel for the place and then base the equipment that I'm going to potentially need on that. I certainly agree that no shot is worth putting yourself in harm's way.

I think for some of us on here, taking almost all the gear would break your back, risk missing a shot or just cause you grief because you have to keep an eye on everything you're not holding - I've learned that last one the hard way.

To your point, know what/where you're shooting and take what you feel will get you through the event for hopefully 90% of the shots. I know for certain circumstances what gear will cover my target shots. I always like to walk with two bodies, but its so easy to walk around with more especially when you prefer primes.

When you think about traveling on a plane with your gear, you have to be aware of what you hope to capture and take as little gear as you can. I wish I could take most of the gear. The only thing I can think of is to date someone with Olympus or Canon DSLR gear and travel with them

I believe in having quality equipment but that doesn't necessarily mean carrying around the heaviest, fastest lenses with image stabilization.

My 70-200 F4 Non IS is my go to portrait lens. I don't feel I'm losing any quality with this lens. But I am saving on quite a bit of weight and money.

My walk-around lens is a Tamron 28-75 2.8 -- very inexpensive and light, but again, a very good quality lens.

Sometimes I will carry all my lenses, my flashes, light stands, etc. but other times I will just go out shooting with my 5D and a 50mm 1.8 lens to save on weight and fuss.

Q1 - I don't think in terms of sacrificing comfort for that once in a lifetime shot. It's not an either/or choice. I think about balance and common sense. But I tell you what - I can carry my 70-200 F4, 28-75 F2.8 and a 50 F1.8 in a small camera bag and I'm set for anything.

Q2 - I consider myself a serious photographer who tries not to take it too seriously. Again, it not as clear cut as you laid out.

Someone asked my why I hide my exif data on Flickr .. my answer is that the gear I'm using or the camera settings are really not important. I don't want people to be caught up on the gear/technical aspect. A good photo should stand on it's own - whether it's taken with a $30,000 medium format camera or a $30 point and shoot. As cliche as it sounds - the camera and lenses are only tools - and sometimes "good enough<gear>" is completely enough to make great pictures.

Q1. I will bring along the equipment that is appropriate to the situation. If I am going to a TPMG event that would require longer glass, I will bring along my 70-200 f4/IS and perhaps my walk-around 17-55 f2.8/IS. I bought the f4 version of the 70-200 because of weight, pure and simple. I didn't think I would need 2.8 on longer glass as I am not a wedding photographer. Obviously there would be situations where the bokeh on a 200/2.8 shot would be nice or that extra stop of light but the size and weight of the 2.8 was a turn off for me.

Q2. How seriously do you take your photography?

I will travel across the entire continuum from Serious to Hobbyist - depending on the situation. I will take a long time to troubleshoot and design a complex lighting shot but recently on New Years Eve I went to a party with my old SD-600 P&S. Gear appropriate to the situation IMO.

Q1) Depending on the purpose of the photo shoot, I'll try to bring as much as I can. Like packing luggage for a vacation, I'd rather bring something and not need it, than need something and not have it. As a result, weight does matter for me. Back when I was shopping for a 70-200. I was mostly influenced by price, and was quite set on the f4 IS. When I dug a little deeper and found out the f2.8 IS was nearly twice the weight, that was the final nail in the coffin for me. In summary, since I carry quite a bit of gear, sure.. every ounce helps.

Q2) I'd say I'm an avid photographer. For static subjects I may spend a little more time, and take several shots of the same scene to get the framing I want. Otherwise, for things like candids, the priority is to get a shot.. period.

A1. I'm of the mindset to bring whatever tool is necessary to get the shot that I want, and if it means lugging heavy bags that'll give me aches and pains, I probably would still do so. I do try to plan ahead for what I want to, but I tend to overpack most of the times anyways. eg. I brought a light stand and umbrella to the centre island nature/landscape trip. Who does that?

A2. Almost-Serious, getting there. I probably don't spend 10+ minutes on a shot that often, but I realize that often I should have examined the scene a bit more after the fact. It's a mindset that I have to train myself to get into more and get better at 'seeing the shot' before taking the shot.

A proffessional perspective would be different of course, but from a hobbyist/enthusiast point of view, I say one should do what their passion tells them to. It wouldn't be as fun otherwise, and that's what it's all about, right?

Loaded questions a once in a lifetime shot only happens well once in a lifetime duh. It's not related to equipment it's related to a coincidence of events and the photographer's perception of the moment. It's certainly not going to happen every day so carrying all your equipment around is not going to help. It might happen too fast for you to change lenses. Unless you know what you are shooting carrying one camera with one lens maybe a quality image stabilized zoom or a fast prime. Rather then alway carrying equipment like a pack mule, keeping your eyes open to what is around you is more likely to result in that illusive shot of a lifetime.

Surprise Paris Hilton getting out of a Limo and she is nude! Oh what lens should I use? Do I need wide angle to catch the limo or telephoto to get the details? What camera body is best for that lens the one with the built in image stabilization or do I need high ISO? Oh too late she realized she's nude and went back into the limo

Its funny you mention weight of a camera and lens, as at the first Snowcross this season I handed both my cameras to a friend to hold onto while I went inside the ski chalet to use the bathroom and grab a Coke.

When I came back, he handed them to me and said "I can't believe you lug that around all day" I laughed and pointed out that he should "Lug that 300mm F 2.8 around for a day". I then marched up the hill to get shooting, with what my friend thought was a heavy load, because I wanted to get "The Shot"

I think weight and discomfort is a relative thing. I used to grow tobacco and people always told me how hard of work it was. I found it to be a pretty easy job. Its all relative to your personal perspective.

as time goes on and, ironically, as I acquire better (and heavier) gear, comfort becomes more of a concern. I've already decided I'm not taking my 5D kit traveling anymore, it's just too big, heavy, cumbersome, conspicuous, etc, for what I do. It gets enough of a workout at studio stuff and concerts - I'm looking forward to building a nice (and light) micro four-thirds system for general carry-around and travel. I'm not going to worry about the shots I won't get because I don't have my top gear with me, I'll concentrate on the ones I can get.

Last year (2008) I went to Australia for three weeks - I took a Leica M8 with 5 lenses (15,21,28,35, & 50) - I also took an LX-3 and a Fuji FD50 with underwater casing. Lots of gear but took up very little room and didn't weigh much either. Didn't miss any shots because I wasn't being paid to shoot and because I know what *I* wanted out of the vacation.

When I shoot weddings (regularly) I always have all my gear, but then again, I'm being paid to record the event so that wouldn't be a disservice to me so much as it is to my clients.



I don't know if that "perfect shot" relates to the question regarding how seriously one takes one's photography.

Getting that perfect shot is not necessarily about setting things up before hand; it takes skill, timing, and, at times, luck imho - this is based on my definition of the perfect shot or the oft over used "decisive moment". If we follow your definition, then I would be an avid photographer and perhaps even a hobbyist. I best be telling the clients (and other photographers) that hire me that I'm not a professional .

Setting up studio lights, choosing a lens, and running/metering strobes while obviously requiring knowledge of lighting theory and skill does not necessarily mean you'll get the "perfect shot" but you should be able to get close to what you, the photographer (and your subject) are aiming for.

Cheers,
Dave

I don't think that once in a lifetime shot's, or once in a lifetime trips depend on you packing a camel or mule's worth of equipment. Look at some of the greatest images of the 20th century - minimal equipment. It's more about pushing yourself and challenging yourself to see and compose with any specific piece of equipment you choose.

That's why I love to shoot with primes rather than zooms, and push it even further by shooting with manual focus non-auto aperture lenses.

Although I have primes from 16mm to 300mm, I pretty much know what 3 or 4 lenses to take for the circumstances and then enjoy the challenge of getting the max out of what I have selected that day.

Camera bag weight is becoming more important to me over time, I just love the light weight of my XSi body compared to heavier bodies (I've owned and used Mamiya RZ67's and Pentax 67's in the field so I know all about camera weight) and I'll choose a small light weight prime like my Olympus 28mm or Tak 135mm any day over a heavy Canon L zoom.

Going to New York City and Washington D.C. I got my ultimate night shots with a tiny folding table top tripod (with exposures up to 20 sec) rather than lugging my heavy full size tripod.

Q1) I often use whatever I think I'll need and is appropriate. Sometimes, smaller, lighter gets the job done better than bigger heavier. For eg, I use a 70-200/2.8 instead of the 120-300/2.8 at weddings and social events. It's simply the better choice. In fact, an 85/1.8 is even lighter/smaller and an even better choice for certain candids due to the faster aperture (better in low light and subject isolation) and sharpness etc.

Q2) Very seriously. But photography doesn't override human interests. There's a time and place for everything, and sometimes, putting away the camera is the right thing to do. I prefer to think that our humanity defines us as photographers, not the other way round.

Concur that equipment != shot of a life time, nor time spent setting up. Right place, right time and being able to see it will get you many more shots of a life time than carrying every lens you own. Being equipped to be able to take the shot you are looking for is more accurate, taking a range finder and wide angle lens for birds in flight is going to make it difficult, switching between 4 long telephoto primes in the middle of a riot is not going to make you the next Jim Nachtwey.

In fact too much equipment may mean you miss the shot of a life time. I think anticipating what situations you are going to be in, what shots you are looking for and taking the equipment that best suits will yield better results than carrying everything under the sun "just in case". Not that it is easy, every time I travel I have to talk myself out of carrying 30lbs of gear and reduce to 2-3 lenses max

Q2: Compared to who? Compared to 99% of people, I take photography very seriously, compared to your typical Nikon vs Canon forum punchup merchants disputing MTF chart interpretations not very seriously. I doubt Robert Capa spent 10 minutes setting up a shot (though this is disputed for some shots )

One word: luck

You just happen to be in the *RIGHT* spot at the *RIGHT* time with the *RIGHT* equipment.

If you have a Hall of Fame here...put yourself in it with this post, because luck is the real factor when shooting in uncontroled environments

i'll answer this by saying, there are rare instances where i walk around with just my camera, and wish i had something else, and regret not bringing it, but practically every other time, when i have everything, i walk around hating myself for carrying it all at once because it's so heavy.

it's never there when you need it and always there when you don't.

f8 and be there....

Having weighed what I brought with me to Toronto Island on the weekend, it came out to ~ 35 lbs.

That was just a tripod, two bodies, four lenses, water, and some other accessories in the bag.

That being said, said lenses were not small as most saw on the weekend.

Holy! I'm gonna stop bitch'n about my 24pound backpack then. lol