Toronto Photography Meetup Group

This seems to happen at every event I've been to and I would like to get some input from you folks in the industry. My client was met before event and we came to an agreement on the rate and hours to be covered. For some reason, people always schedule the photographer to leave part way through the night (I understand in most cases all the important photos are finished at that point) However, they always seem to want you to stay longer and not want to pay you for the extra time.

Now here is my predicament. I was covering a christmas party where my client wanted photos of their employees next to the company backdrop. I had everything set up with strobes and what not, but no one was in the mood to take any photos before the dinner. I went about and took regular photos of the guests and the speeches and what not. Things run late and by the time people start to get ready for photos, the time they had hired me for is up. My clieny does not want to pay for additional time, so it would be logical to pack up and leave right? However, people are now in the mood for photos, and everything is set up already. If I had packed up and left in front of them, I wouldn't have the photos they were looking for and it would look bad on my company to just pack up and leave when people are lining up for the photos.

I am contemplating not providing the images with the backdrop unless they pay for the additional time. How would you have handled the situation at the time?

Since, as you say, this seems to happen at every event, you should make it clear from the outset. You are paid by the hour and not by the picture. When time is up, its up and additional time is to be paid for. At the event, make it clear to your contact person what you need to fill their requirements and thats the cooperation of the people to get the necessary pictures done. While its their party, its your job.

I agree with what has been said here, and the challenge of not clearly defining on paper the option for additional hours at an additional rate. And of course, always keep a copy of the signed contract on you.

I would just provide the photos. You decided to stay and were not asked, so to try to ask for more money is pointless.

You chose to stay, so you should provide the photos. You really should have left when the contracted time was up, because then there would be no issues to discuss. You contracted for time, not specific performance.

If you now say that they can't have the shots without paying for the extra time you become the bad guy, and can throw out any idea of repeat business.

And yes, always get it in writing.

If I might add some points for you:

Never book by the hour or by the photograph. Alway package your assignments and include extra hours for post production time and schedule conflicts, it will almost always happen.

I see so many inexperienced photographers get into a business only to nickel and dime clients, get over it and rise above. Your error for not charging enough is your error, deliver a good package and move on. This is a very competitive business, if you charge a cheap rate, you will attract clients as such, and remember the client does not care about anything but the end product, so beware of providing a very detailed quote to begin with, and always give room for the 10% discount.

They did ask me to stay but clearly didn't want to pay for it, that's what's putting me off. I made it very clear to my client that the time he wanted me for was quite short but he seemed fine with it at the time. So let's say things were in writing and this situation happened, would you pack up and leave?

Put everything in a contract including an hourly rate for extra time. As Rhommel said, you can put any stipulations you want in the contract to protect yourself. When I shot events etc I just googled "Wedding/Event Photography Contract" looked at a bunch of them and created my own that suited my needs.

Depending on the client, I probably would have left. At one point I was accomodating to everyone thinking that I would be paid back in future business, but sadly thats not the case most times. Company budgets are tight and sometimes photography isn't the highest priority, people will try to take advantage of you.

And to further working with corporate where photography doesn't get the correct priority, by not having a contract and getting taken advantage of, it encourages repeat offenders.
If you learn you can take somebody once, you will try until you fail.
I've had a similar thing happen, but fortunately had a paper contract to fall back on.
Fortunately I got the money for my time for the event upfront but because they had beef with the contract after the fact, the dispute was never settled and they received no images - as stipulated in the contract.
You learn once. And then you never do it again. Besides having a proper contract in place will make both of you happy.

It is sometimes "hard" or "awkward" to enforce a contract - especially with friends, co-workers and other people you already know, but it is well worth the effort.

Bush ruined this one but: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." ~Chinese Proverb

I think James is on the right track - offer a package price for the whole night.

If you want to play the back-end game of extra charges - you will have to learn to play hardball - state the extra charge rates in the contract - get a signature as proof that extra hours (during the event when time is about to run out) were asked for and invoice it - you are going to have to hold the images as security against payment.

But that's not really a good way to build a client base. I think you should do what James suggested - package pricing.

I'd agree, but do what you can to leverage it into a favorable position for you. ie. here are the photos, but I also noticed that the photos of your executives on your web site are all out of date, perhaps we can do a deal there, or about your plans for the Easter party... etc...

as said before by others. Contract.Contract.Contract.

If you or anyone else finds themselves in this position again and they hesitate to work with a *Contract*, find door. walk out. Working without a *Contract*, and being taken advantage of because there was no *Contract*, makes one their B^%$# in most cases because one hopes for future work from them to make up for it. And of course would one want to work for/with said company after said experience.

Look at it from the client side. They hired you to do a job. It turned out that your time before the meal was a waste of time. Is that your fault or their fault for not knowing the best time to capture Xmas party feeling was after some food and booze. Next time suggest that you would be better off coming at the end of the meal and if they want you earlier then you have to charge them for extra time. You learned a lesson and it didn't cost you much, time to move on.

As you said right off, this has happened before, so you know what to expect. Contract is good idea, but expecting to stay the night at the event, just build in the extra couple hours to the original cost. If you do get to leave early then bonus for you. Otherwise, they are getting what they paid for. In fact they are getting what they paid for in both cases......photogaphs of the event.

I understand a written contract is important to have, however I am certain this situation will still arise. If you were put on the spot like in my situation with a written contract, would you pack up and leave if the client refuses to pay for additional time?

WOW, give it a rest with the same question!

A professional photographer would never leave a location shoot. period. Your refusal to accept that simply shows that you are seeking confirmation from those like yourself that
really do not get what shooting for a client is all about. Not sure why you do not understand that it is YOUR issue for not charging enough to cover your costs and time in the first place.

Take a course in business acumen... perhaps it might help!

Business acumen: Definition

A keenness and quickness in understanding and dealing with a business situation in a manner that is likely to lead to a good outcome.[1] The term "business acumen" can be broken down literally as a composite of its two component words: Business literacy is defined as "the knowledge and understanding of the financial, accounting, marketing and operational functions of an organization."[2] The Oxford English Dictionary defines acumen as "the ability to make good judgments and quick decisions".[3] Given these textbook definitions, a strictly literal definition would be "keenness and quickness in understanding and dealing with a business situation."

First off I did stay to get the job done. Photography is not my profession but my passion so I do what is needed to get the job done right so don't label me or assume things you do not know. I also do not want to be taken advantage of either that's why I am asking for input from you pros in the industry. So by your recommendation, you would over quote your clients to cover potential overtime? Great business model. I work in retail and have seen many companies fall to that greedy sentiment.

Before this gets outta hand I want to thank everyone for their input.

Ive never heard of someone shooting by the hour for an event. The event lasts from a starting set time to a closing set time. The job of the photographer is to cover that event. You decide what you are going to charge it. If the event is 5 hours and they say you only have to stay for 3 you know from experience you will be staying the 5 hours. So you figure out the price for the event and if they agree to that price that is your only concern. Besides its not like after the event you have to run off to do something else. It doesnt sound like you do your photography with a passion, but with a stop watch. I think best advice is from James.

Just want to add something for those with non photography related FT jobs.

If photography is indeed a passion, think very hard about trying to monetize it because it may very well go south and end up in situations like this. It's fine to try to make some secondary income from photography but realize that work is very rarely about passion, it's about producing widgets. I love photography but I can honestly say I'm not passionate about it.

To the OP, take what you can from this thread but I'd suggest seeking advice beyond this forum as well ( no offence to members here).

Good luck.

Delsorbo:

I ran into this situation before too, it's not a pretty place to be at. Take a hit this time and deliver your images the best you can.
Keep it professional
If a new or the same client approach you next time, have a contract in hand and:

Before the event:
- Internet is your friend, there are plenty resources to help you write a solid and professional looking contract or agreement
- Write as many clauses needed in order to explain the contract/agreement conditions
- Be clear, avoid repetition
- Be specific about times, dates, place(s), person in charge, equipment to be used and ALL services included in the contract
- Moreover, be sure to specify about the cost of additional charges, optional services and/or upgrades (such as add hour price, editing, slideshows, dvd's, usb, etc)
- Meet with the client, discuss details and make sure the 2 contract copies are signed by you & the client.
- Seek an opportunity to scout/visit the venue beforehand

On the day of the event:
- Report yourself with the client as soon as you arrive, introduce to him/her anybody else of our staff members/crew
- Acknowledge your arrival time and mention your departure time
- Do your thing work, work , work
- At least 30 minutes before the end of the contract time, report again and discuss to the client if there's need to extend the time
- At your discretion negotiate additional hours
- Complete your work and leave...do not stay to get drunk and embarrass yourself

ONE Business day after the event:
- Contact the client and thank him/her; remind about the time you'll deliver any remaining work/service/files (as per the contract)
- Offer additional services, optional or upgrades
- Deliver invoice and request balance on COD (payment on delivery - depending on the contract clauses, you should have already a deposit, usually 30 to 40%)

On the day of Delivery
- Hopefully the invoice was cleared and payment is in your hands
- Deliver the files/work/extras (as per contract)
- Include a little extra/gift/freebie to your client
- book your vegas/papua/ cruise etc weekend getaway

Not to sound off here... Give them the photo. Passion, Money, Taken advantage of, that sounds like the makings for afternoon TV. It's a party, eat, drink and spend the overtime talking to the woman. Next time be smarter...

Reading this story again - I am not sure I agree the statement that professionals don't charge by the hour - lawyers and accountants charge by the hour, doctors are paid by the procedure but each procedure has a standard time set for it. Why shouldn't photographers charge by the hour. It's easier to sell packages than hourly rates but at the end of the day - the advice I am seeing is to spec the job by the hour but convert the quote to a package price, which is another way of saying pad the quote with extra hours you think the client needs rather than quote what the clients asked for.

I think the key here is that you don't want to be in that situation again. If according to the schedule you were given - people were supposed to get photos at a certain time but didn't show up - find you contact right away and notify him/her of the slip in the schedule and ask them how they want to fix that.

What this does is set the expectation that they may not get the photos they envisioned - you would also offer them the chance to increase your hours for them to get what they envisioned. So now, you have given them a clear choice with lots of lead time to get approvals or to think of a solution - increase your hours or get off their ass and round up the people for you to shoot or accept that they will not get the shots they envisioned. This has to be done as soon as there is a slip in the schedule. This assumes that a schedule was made and agree to before hand. This ties us back to what I think other posters are saying - quote the job on what you think is needed (package price) rather than what the client asked for (hourly rate). Agreeing on the schedule before hand will very quickly show what is going to be possible vs. what the client thinks is possible and will set the correct expectations when things go sideways during the event.

I would make the comparison to a restaurant / event hall - when you book a wedding, the restaurant/hall is very CLEAR on the time you have to be out - they will allow you to stay longer but they are very specific about extra charges if you make the staff stay longer than the contracted time. If extra meals are required - they extra charge those too. I think the DJs are the same way too - I guess they just hammer it into the client that extra charges will apply if they stay past the contracted time. You need to do the same thing.