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walkaboutcamera
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Rather than hijack Tyler's thread I thought I would start a new one. For ref.

http://www.tpmg.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?p=165874#165874

and a couple of posts from the thread....

rhommel wrote:
it shouldn't be called a 'PHOTO' contest.
Should be 'Photoshop' contest.


Mr.Walczak wrote:
How is Photoshop different then the darkroom? Besides it being on a computer ?


To kick off I attended a Barrie Photo Club meeting, where a Digital Fine Art Photographer, was addressing the meeting. The question came up with regard to how much post processing is allowed in Digital Fine Art Photography. His responce was, levels and curves, and minimal dodging and burning. I should mention that his photos were all B&W

I'm not sure I fully agree with that and I would like to see the discussion go further a field than just Fine Art Photography.
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vkhamphi
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I think people should be able to do whatever they want to do to their image. No photoshop or lots of photoshop that's their business, if you like it or don't like it that's your business.

If they claim no photoshop and it was obviously photoshopped then thats something else.
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mings
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Here's a rhetorical question,

The darkroom processing, how far is far enough?

I think the same principles apply to both. IMHO
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Seren Dipity
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It's an interesting question but I think it can not be discussed without understanding which genre/type of photography is being scrutinized.

For example in photojournalism there are some pretty strict guidelines of what post processing can be performed. This article outlines the guidelines pretty well: http://ezinearticles.com/?Photojournali ... id=2612114

For contest submissions it is entirely up to the contest owners to define the parameters of what is acceptable post processing.

For most other types of photography, in my opinion, there are no restrictions, aside from the fact the essence of the image should be photographic. If the essence of the image has been post processed to the point where it is not recognizable as a photograph then I believe it moves into to a different genre - namely 'digital art'.
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Shuttereye
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Coming from a digital "fine art photographer" that's hilarious. I would love to hear his reasons for saying that. I am not one but to say what you can or can't do in a creative self expression medium is absolutely wrong. An educated buyer or collector should decide that.

This reminds me of a photographic review in 1905 where the writer had a hissy fit denouncing photo processes that didn't conform to his views. I'll post a link on that when I find it.
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PotatoEYE
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the more the merrier
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jackctk
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If you're the photographer, you can do whatever you want with your images.
There's no too far or not enough...its a form of art and you're the creator.
You make it as you see it, dont listen to anyone else. :D
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holly
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I'm not going to say what other people should or should not do..
However, I personally tend not to like heavily processed images (ie HDR, oversharpening, selective desaturation, etc).
I spend more than enough time in front of the computer as a student so I like to spend as little time as possible in front of the computer as a photographer. I never edit outside the RAW work flow in PS and that work is usually limited to saturation, exposure, contrast, colour correction.

I think it goes too far when someone is heavily changing the structure of the image or is modifying someones body - yes, take out some blemishes, sure, but there's no need to "liquefy" 10 pounds off someone.

Also, maybe thinking of shifting what you call it based on how much you edit - photo-based art vs photography.
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dcsang
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I consistently see "it's the same as what's done in the darkroom" - I wonder how many people who say this have actually wet printed in a darkroom??

Dave
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smlg.ca
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I really don't like the over-processed tone mapped look. But provided it exists in the realm of art and personal expression, all power to those who want to engage in such techniques.
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Ken
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I don't object to the use of any type of pre or post-capture manipulation if the intention is to create 'art'.

However, it has little to no place in photo-documentary and photo-journalism.
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dcsang
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smlg.ca wrote:
I really don't like the over-processed tone mapped look. But provided it exists in the realm of art and personal expression, all power to those who want to engage in such techniques.


Agreed.

Photography, Photos, should stand on their own merit without having to have excessive (yes, yes, that's a relative and subjective term) post processing done to them.

These are not my words so I'll put them into quotes accordingly but they have echoed (and continue to echo) my feelings on this issue:
Quote:
You gotta love digital cameras...

Because of them, all of a sudden you have all these people who never took an interest in art, who never went to a museum or a gallery or bought an art book, confronted with a whole new world that they dont understand... but they are determined to be a part of it, because now they have a DSLR and that makes them an artist, right? So they go ahead and read on the internet about this new photography thing (still no intention of going to a museum or a gallery- too hard, internet is easier) and they come across the magic marketing term:

IMAGE QUALITY! Ahhhhh yes! Now it all makes sense! You spend the $$$, you get gooood camera, you get lotsa image quality, and good image quality = good photo! right? And then they discover bokeh, woohoo! Add a healthy dose of bokeh for good measure and you have a winner, right? Gallery stuff!

Nope

Sorry. Its kinda hard to explain that technical issues may or may not matter, depending on the artist's intention. There are however other things that definitely matter, things like (caution: artspeak follows) context, emotion, content, mood, concept, aesthetic, cohesiveness and of course more pedestrian stuff that are particular to photography and painting, things like light, composition, timing, tonality and colour if applicable. When Henri Cartier-Bresson's photos score so high on everything that matters, who cares about sharpness? And, to make things even more complicated for the guy who has now discovered this peculiar new art world, it is a world which is not always logical, or fair, or entirely free of trends and fashions.


Cheers,
Dave
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Metrix
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Top 10 Reasons You Know When You Have Gone Too Far

10. Someone buys it and asks to have it framed in gold and matted with black velvet
9. Only your parents would put it on their wall
8. Young boys want to have a poster made so they can put it on their bedroom door
7. Young girls think it's cute
6. You think it's cute
5. Someone says your work reminds you of another person's work that you can't stand
4. Someone wants to know what HDR program you used
3. People you don't know give you crop suggestions
2. People you know give you cloning suggestions
1. It reaches the top 100 in Explore on Flickr
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Tanner
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:33 pm 
Ken wrote:
I don't object to the use of any type of pre or post-capture manipulation if the intention is to create 'art'.

However, it has little to no place in photo-documentary and photo-journalism.


Same here.
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walkaboutcamera
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Metrix wrote:
Top 10 Reasons You Know When You Have Gone Too Far

10. Someone buys it and asks to have it framed in gold and matted with black velvet
9. Only your parents would put it on their wall
8. Young boys want to have a poster made so they can put it on their bedroom door
7. Young girls think it's cute
6. You think it's cute
5. Someone says your work reminds you of another person's work that you can't stand
4. Someone wants to know what HDR program you used
3. People you don't know give you crop suggestions
2. People you know give you cloning suggestions
1. It reaches the top 100 in Explore on Flickr


Can't stop LOL
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mikefellh
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:34 pm 
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To get back to the topic what sparked this thread, it was about PHOTO CONTESTS:

rhommel wrote:
it shouldn't be called a 'PHOTO' contest.
Should be 'Photoshop' contest.


Mr.Walczak wrote:
How is Photoshop different then the darkroom? Besides it being on a computer ?


It's up to the organizers of a competition to specify what is or isn't allowed in terms of manipulation.

walkaboutcamera wrote:
To kick off I attended a Barrie Photo Club meeting, where a Digital Fine Art Photographer, was addressing the meeting. The question came up with regard to how much post processing is allowed in Digital Fine Art Photography. His responce was, levels and curves, and minimal dodging and burning.


In your own "fine art" doesn't matter how much you push the boundaries.

However going back to "rhommel's" comment about photo vs. photoshop contest, the Toronto Camera Club does specify in its competitions the limits of manipulation. For instance for "Pictorial" it should be "realistic", i.e. something you could see with your eyes if you were standing where the shot was taken (with the exception of using different focal lengths and shutter speeds notwithstanding). I should be able to take the same shot that was submitted without any fancy manipulations.

Nature competitions are even stricter in that only basic fixes are allowed (not even cloning to get rid of unwanted parts of the scene (except dust spots) is allowed).

They also have creative competitions where there are no limits.

If the organizers of the Vistek contest didn't specify any limits, then no one should be complaining about the amount of manipulation done by the submitters!
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smlg.ca
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:46 pm 
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mikefellh wrote:
For instance for "Pictorial" it should be "realistic", i.e. something you could see with your eyes if you were standing where the shot was taken (with the exception of using different focal lengths and shutter speeds notwithstanding). I should be able to take the same shot that was submitted without any fancy manipulations.


Poor Ansel Adams. Disqualified from the Toronto Camera Club competition for excessive manipulation.
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dcsang
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:04 pm 
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smlg.ca wrote:
Poor Ansel Adams. Disqualified from the Toronto Camera Club competition for excessive manipulation.


As seen today from another wedding photog from Rhode Island on Facebook:
"Dodging & burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made in establishing tonal relationships."-Ansel Adams

And as I commented.. "Glad to see even dead "rockstars" can justify post processing ;-)"

Dave
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walkaboutcamera
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:24 pm 
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mikefellh wrote:
If the organizers of the Vistek contest didn't specify any limits, then no one should be complaining about the amount of manipulation done by the submitters!


Perhaps quoting rhommel was a mistake, this thread was not started as or intended to be a complaint about the Vistek Compitition.
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Mr.Walczak
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This arguement has gone on since the start of Photography ... Straight photographers and Pictorialists .. Lets not forget Photography was frowned upon as "cheating" when it first started .. Scrutinized by Artists who believed people who could'nt create art with their hands used Cameras .... Also lets not forget if you want to be a true Photographer .. Shoot film .. Digital its still being manipulated in the camera ..

Side note .. What if you have to do a ton of post in order to get it as real as you saw it that day without the camera? .. Aslong as Photography is around people with bitch about processing .. but what really is a true photograph?? Is there such thing? Developing film in different chemicals renders different outcomes .. whos to say which is right? the one that looks most like real life?
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mproxas
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to each is own..

in every aspect in life, there will always be people who like what you do and dislike it. what's the point of making everyone agree with you.
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Shuttereye
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mings wrote:
Here's a rhetorical question,

The darkroom processing, how far is far enough?

I think the same principles apply to both. IMHO


Ansel Adams was noted for spending a lot of time in darkroom perfecting his prints. You are asking how far does it go? His dodging and burning went far enough in the fine art market. The proof that you do what your creative vision impels you not the other way around.

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/artdesign/story/ ... ction.html
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mikefellh
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walkaboutcamera wrote:
Perhaps quoting rhommel was a mistake, this thread was not started as or intended to be a complaint about the Vistek Compitition.


Well, in that case what does it matter how much manipulation is done to an image, if you're doing it for your own enjoyment rather than a competition, or for a customer.

Personally I think the "cheating" comments come from photographers who have never done their own darkroom work...they have an assistant who fixed all the mistakes (without telling the photographer), or they drop the films off at a lab and pick up the perfect (corrected) prints...they have no idea of the amount of work involved.

In the (chemical) darkroom I've done lots of stuff that traditional photographers have never done like placing objects right on the photographic paper and exposing it to light, so doing creative stuff to my images on the computer is no different.
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walkaboutcamera
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:22 am 
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mikefellh wrote:
Well, in that case what does it matter how much manipulation is done to an image, if you're doing it for your own enjoyment rather than a competition, or for a customer.


What was nagging me at the time and could not find the words was pretty much summed up by dcsang's quote above. And I would add that we all need to stand back and look at our work and ask more deeply what are we doing that goes beyond mere enjoyment. I thank you all for your input, it has all been most useful.
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Carlton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:27 am 
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I've also noticed a trend in the wedding market towards a tone mapped/HDR look.
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vkhamphi
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Carlton wrote:
I've also noticed a trend in the wedding market towards a tone mapped/HDR look.


So?
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vkhamphi
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Lets look at it this way. My car is my "image", I decide to "photoshop" it with snow tires instead of leaving it alone with the all seasons. Is this going to far? What if I add stickers or fuzzy dice? Do anyone of you care what I do to my car? Why should anyone care what I do to my pictures then?
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Ken
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Carlton wrote:
I've also noticed a trend in the wedding market towards a tone mapped/HDR look.


What the client wants, the client gets.
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Mr.Walczak
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I think the argument here is not wether or not its wrong but wether or not its considered "Photography"
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Ken
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vkhamphi wrote:
Carlton wrote:
I've also noticed a trend in the wedding market towards a tone mapped/HDR look.


So?


I think he's just asserting an observation. Not passing judgment on the trend he's observed.
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