Toronto Photography Meetup Group

So an aquantance of mine asked me to be a second shooter at a wedding hes getting payed for .. Im using my d300 for outdoor stuff and hes lending me a d700 plus 16-35 i believe ... Its from 2 - 10pm Next Saturday ... We were kicking around the idea and what not and then Today I asked him about compensation and he "thought I was doing it for free" now hes a nice guy and all and his stuffs pretty good... But what do you think? Do it to build my portfolio and use it as experience? or Say no to a freebie job (8 hours) I will not be editing just shooting and handing him the stuff ...

What do you guys think??

Do it for free. Especially if it is your first wedding.
Plus how often will a real wedding photographer offer you an opportunity to shoot with them?

I would do it for free too, especially if you've never done it before.

It depends.

Is he a good wedding photographer that you think you would/could learn from? If that's the case I would do this one for free since it's more of a trade situation - your labour, for his expertise and experience.

If he's an amateur that does this on the side and doesn't have much experience or talent then it's less of a trade situation and just free labour for him. So it's up to you to decide what the situation is and go from there.

yeah, people are always trying to volunteer to be seconds for good wedding photographers. This could be a good opportunity.

I think this is a fantastic opportunity for an aspiring photographer and would do this and many more free (in terms of cash payment). If you think of how many weddings you'll attend in your life the number is generally pretty low. You don't want to be the primary shooter at a friend's wedding without experience either. So this experience isn't obtainable without ruined friendships (over horrible photos) or being a second shooter. If you're looking to shoot weddings at all in your career this experience is invaluable.

If you're allowed to use the photos your created in your portfolio that's just icing!

I have to agree with everyone else...take this opportunity to learn and experience wedding photography...definate bonus if your 2nd shooter to a pro... I am very fortunate to be asked as well to be a second photographer to a well known East Coast wedding photographer. I jumped all over it for the experience.(no payment) It'll give a general idea if weddings are something to pursue or not. I've heard many photographers say they wouldn't touch weddings with a ten foot pole because of the hassles it involves...In the end it's your decision...but I think it would be a good thing to experience for yourself. Just MHO...

I appreciate all you info and input I 100 percent agree with you all .. It also takes the pressure off of me being non payed .. I can do my thing and let my photos speak for themselves and if there good I can use them for my portfolio and learn from the experience .. I was just torn with the saying don't sell yourself short. But in reading your posts I realized that money isn't the only form of payment ...Knowledge and experience can be of more value then monetary in many situations .. I'm definatly going to do it .. Thanks again everyone ! Fell free to continue posting thoughts and opinions in here

If it's a Chinese wedding you might get some red packets.

Hardly likely for hired help but you do get to eat for free before everyone else gets to eat.

Shooting traditional Asian and some other ethnic weddings make for a LONG day. Western weddings are a lot easier. As everyone mentioned, if you think you're going to take up doing wedding work, this is a great opportunity (and less stress) to be a secondary and get a grasp of what's involved before making a decision.

[quote="Mr.Walczak"It also takes the pressure off of me being non payed .. [/quote]
Another bonus... less stress

D'ah I obviously don't know how to use the quotes thing

LOL, you lost the "]" after "[quote"

Thanks for the tutorial Carlton! Learning something new everyday...got the emoticons mastered though

Sorry for hijacking your thread Tyler

In other threads here on TPMG about giving images away for publications or for commercial use, there is usually an uproar against such practices. The same is true for wedding photography. The lead photographer should be perfectly capable of paying for help. It's not like they aren't being paid by their clients. If not the full rate for a second shooter at least some compensation should be given I think.

The only benefit in donating images is exposure, and usually that exposure is very small. Translation: Very little gain.

This is a good opportunity to learn *a lot*, especially if you get to use the images you shoot. Translation: Very high gain.

Compensation isn't always monetary.

Some people don't understand the internship model, you need stripes before you can be a zebra. Nothing wrong with excellent learning opportunities. If the gig was to post process all the photos taken in a day... I can see the other side of the argument, but this is a shooting role.

It's a little different. You have to look at both parties and see if the risk to gain ratio is equal. In the case of publication or commercial use, the publisher has no risk but great gain. He is gaining extra photos without needing to compensate. His only risk is to choose to use the photos.

In the case of a primary photographer, the risk to gain ratio is on par with both parties. For the primary photographer, his gain is extra photos, but his risk is his reputation. Mr.Walczak is new to the industry and could be a total jerk at the wedding. He could ruin the whole event which could jeopardize the primary photographers business. The secondary photographer is gaining experience at the risk of no compensation. If Mr. Walczak had more experience, the risk for the primary photographer would decrease, but since he's new, it's pretty high. I would think it's a fair trade. The only thing you might be able to ask for is compensation for transportation. But ultimately, it's your choice. If the risk is worth the gain, do it. If it's not, then don't.

I'm usually a nice guy I swear!

I've second shot with a pro a few times, who also happens to be a good friend of mine. He has always paid me, save for one wedding that he was doing for free and thus I did for free as well. I was given the choice beforehand and chose to do it anyways. I suggest that you request to be paid for your time, to keep things professional on both sides.

More importantly, make sure that you're provided a dinner at the reception.

And get friendly with the bridesmaids


Edit: to add a few more thoughts. A single wedding is not going to be enough to build a portfolio on, so that should not be justification for doing the gig for free. If you agree to do more weddings in the future together and be compensated going forward then doing the free one might not be a bad idea. But if this is a one-off only, you should absolutely be paid.

If you're going to argue that it's a learning experience that's fine, but in reality I'd only do it for free based on that justification if the pro is going to take the time to spend time with you and actually teach you some things, which isn't likely in the fast-paced environment of wedding shooting. It's more likely that you'll be left to your own devices for most of the event.

The flipside of that is the primary shooter may withdraw his offer. Tyler then misses out on an opportunity to try shooting a wedding. As I see it, this is more an opportunity to see if shooting weddings would be something he may want to do in the future or avoid like the plague.

Attitudes and mindsets are often very different when you're being paid versus when you're not being paid. It's a dangerous slope to be on, especially in the wedding field.

I suppose a good question to ask is does the pro normally pay a second shooter? If so, I would expect he'd be willing to pay anyone who fills the role. This was the case in my experience, as I know the pro I shoot with has paid others to second shoot with him before he started offering me the job.

"Compensation does not always come in the form of money" is a very good thought that has been mentioned a few times. Another one to keep in mind is "pay is commensurate with skill and experience", stolen from every job recruiter and headhunters play book. That is, the more experience you have and the better you are at the job, the more you will be paid. If you are just starting out and don't have much (if any) experience photographing a wedding, then you cannot expect to charge much (if at all).

Having an inexperienced second shooter can often be worse than not having that person there at all. The primary shooter might have to spend a lot of time directing the second, or the second gets in the way of the primary, or the second does not behave in a manner expected by them, or whatever.

On top of that, you should also consider your own expenses, how much equipment you are asked to bring, and who is in greater need of whose services. I'll give you two of my own examples, both of which happened last year. In one instance, another photographer called me in an emergency because her husband was stuck on the other side of the continent at an airport, and was not able to make it back for a wedding they had booked. She needed me, my assistant, and our full wedding kit. The wedding was up in Muskoka, which means travel fees and lots of driving. The final invoice I sent them came to about $2300 to second shoot that wedding and turn over the files.

On the other hand, when I first switched from Canon to Nikon, I wanted to practise in a wedding situation, but not be counted on to deliver the shots. I put the word out with my colleagues and second shot a few weddings for free. The primary photographer covered meals and other expenses, but that was it. That's okay by me, because I got what I wanted out of it (real-world experience with a new camera system), and it's always fun hanging out with another photographer at a wedding.

Free food!!!

Every Chinese wedding i've done, I always got red packets.

I say steal something to make it worth your while.

How about the bride?

that depends on her quality

The bride and an option on a bride's maid or two?