Toronto Photography Meetup Group

Although I bought myself a 40D and two lenses as my first SLR system, I still have alot to learn about photography. For the first few months I kept looking at more lenses (and I still do, but to a lesser extent), but going out with the group to the Harbourfront last week made me realize that I am missing the big picture (no pun intended!) because there is so much for me to learn both technically (with the camera) and artistically.

I have a 17-85mm and a 70-200mm F4L IS, so I believe I have a good enough combo in terms of focal length to start with..but not fast lenses.
Anyway, I was just wondering how everyone started out with this hobby, and what is the best way to improve my pictures? (I.e. attending classes)

for me the best way was to read photography related tutorials and tips on websites and then try them out myself. That way I learned a lot of rules and how to break them effectively, yet artistically, you need to have a mindset. Look at art, look at nature, look around beyond everyday activities and things. Art is everywhere if you can see it.

some people need to be told what to do and how to do it, I am not one of them, I can happily learn on my own most of the time. Might not work for you though

The idea of trying photography came to me while browsing through Flickr's Explore. I got myself a Canon XTi with a kit lens on Craigslist in the fall of 2007. I really got into photography shortly after joining TPMG. I could honestly say that a few TPMG members were the ones who started my fire. They taught me a lot when I joined them at events and answering my questions. I also learned by researching online and then trying different things out myself. Go on photowalks by yourself or with a friend. You'll learn a lot just by trial and error. In no time, you'll discover what kind of a shooter you are; street, architecture, portrait, etc. I personally like shooting street and portrait. I go on photowalks by myself occasionally and also set up model shoots. That aside, there's also no problem with shooting a variety of things. Nothing else really matters, just as long as you enjoy the process of taking a photo and presenting it to the world.

Personally, I've never taken any photography classes so I don't know what it's like. I've taken one photoshop class that was held by TPMG though... which was fun being able to share knowledge with others. Other than that, I don't really think there's a need to take any classes. You can learn a lot through TPMG.

In terms of equipment, you'll discover what you like using and what you need later on when you find out what kind of a shooter you are.

I think alot of it has to do with developing that critical eye to quickly and easily spot a frame that would make a great photo.

When I browse through other people's flickr photos now, I realize how many great shots were composed from the most ordinary things framed together. As a culture, it seems like we are addicted to owning the best (best camera, sharpest lenses). Interestingly enough, alot of very good photos I have seen were taken with some very ordinary lenses and camera. Maybe this helps us concentrate more on the craft of photography and less on acquiring expensive equipment, or maybe it forces us to work more within the limitations of what we have and learn not just to rely on the results given to us by good cameras/lenses, but all the subtleties that come with getting the perfect shot with sub-standard equipment? Just a thought

My mother was a photographer and had her own darkroom when she was younger, so I was three when I got my start with an Agfa Isolette (ok, she set the camera since you had to set everything on it, even cock the shutter before you could trip it). Won't go into my LONG history here, but I was already doing digital image editing in the late 80's, and photography has always been a part of my life.

As for learning, there's classes, lectures, workshops, mentors (including on TPMG), books & videos (check out the public library), camera clubs, etc. What's best depends on the way you learn.

Confucius said, "I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand." The point is you not only have to use the learning aids, but you should also practice.

spend less time reading opinions and taking advice on how to be a photographer and shoot more...

learn to be your biggest fan and harshest critic and edit, edit, edit...

only then should you solicit opinions and advice on your work... you need to find your own approach, vision, whatever you want to call it before you try to incorporate the advice of others in context ...

in essence, shoot more, read less (especially when the signal to noise ratio online is soooooo very skewed to the noise end of the spectrum)...

George Brown has some great courses. I've also had good experience with workshops offered by the ImageWorks.

i support ken's advice, just shoot shoot shoot, there's nothing like experience

i should be shooting more but all i do is drool over gear at work

The way I see it, photography is of two parts, art and science; and each part is mutually dependent on the other. Without artistic vision, all one has is sophisticated light-reactive equipment, exciting perhaps for the engineer, but not too useful in general. On the other hand, without the science, creative visions cannot be realised.

I don't know if there have been studies, but it seems like photography, especially recently with the proliferation of digital imagery has tended to attract a great many (men, especially) who are interested in the technical side of things; hence the fascination with large aperture/long focal length lenses, pixel density, modulation transfer functions etc, and all and sundry that a number can be attached to. Which makes it all too much like a penis length contest. Which may help explain the attraction of photography to a demographic of men obsessed with quantification and comparison.

As for the artistic side of things; this can be a bit tricky, because the definition of beautiful is often socially determined, and with the proliferation of cameras, and images online, everybody and his brother has taken (and made) pictures of almost every possible concept that one can imagine. This aspect also probably has the most potential to make one insecure. But then, if one is shooting for oneself, and not to make images to make money, then why should we care what other people think? So long as one is happy with the images that one obtains, shouldn't that be enough? On the other hand, once in a while, there is a need to calibrate one's taste, because after all, we do not live on desert islands.

In my opinion, there is a certain amount of technical proficiency to acquire, and there is also the artistic vision to develop. I agree with Ken that it is important to go out and shoot, a lot, and continually strive to develop one's vision, something that one is comfortable with. However, I think it is also important to read, but with a critical mindset, to understand where the advice is coming from, and to make use of it selectively. I suppose to add to that - to view more (photos, artwork), so as to develop one's aesthetic sensibilities?

Put your zoom lens away and only bring them out on special occasions. Start out with a fast prime maybe an inexpensive 50mm f1.8. Spend as much time as possible shooting, move around a bit when composing, don't let the camera operate on automatic, use and change aperture and/or exposure settings and look at the histogram after each shot then make new adjustments according to how you want the shoot and then repeat until it's second nature, at this point you will know how to use a camera and you can start using your zoom lenses.

I've really only been shooting since December, with the purchase of my first DSLR, but I've hit it head on and spend bits of my time everyday learning -- be it going out for a walk to shoot new techniques or staying at home and learning how to use PS or LR more efficiently.

The one thing that I've gotten in the habit of doing is framing everything I see -- be it as I'm walking along the road, looking at a landscape, or at people. I now look at a lot of things in frames, it's weird. It helps me with composition and exploring new angles and perspectives.

that's exactly what I tend to think

Shoot, edit, get critique, and shoot some more... that's the best way to learn. I got a lot out of joining and being part of a photography club. I learned a lot of things along the way from lecture's and listening to different photographer's speak about their technique's.

+1

I always have a camera with me now. Things that people walk by everyday can pop up in my head as a good photo-op. The thing about seeing a lot of things as a photo is definite true. It's as if my eyes suddenly have a rule of thirds grid stuck in front of them.

I hear ya

+1

As I read a photographer's interview once, he eluded to photographing shoes till you're either sick of it, or someone offers you a job. Essentially, find all the angles, lighting set-ups and processing till you end up with a photo that YOU really like. From that ... you'll start to find your style.

Funny thing is, I started out fooling around with Photoshop 5, just erasing friend's eyebrows and stuff ... then from there, ended up doing some cool poster set ups for cars. But I was getting other people to do the photos, and got tired spending timing correcting for their shots ... so started to shoot my own.

And now, I work too much to shoot. LOL.

But be careful not to put yourself in a rut. Don't know how many times I've seen a thread on DPR, and one just the other day on PhotoCamel saying, "I can't seem to be inspired to take any photos of anything" and they ask for help to get out of that rut they put themselves into.

The problem is they do limit themselves with one subject, they do limit themselves with one lens, they do limit themselves with one technique...of course they're going to get bored.

For example, I belong to a camera club and every year we shoot grafitti alley...there are some who say, "I shot it last year, so I'm not bothering with it this year." Personally I've gone every year, but every year I'll try a different technique, different lens, or use a different special effects filter (yes you can duplicate 99.9% of filters on the computer, but the idea here is to make the shoot interesting). The idea is to capture the same subject in a different way...this year I'm going to use my semi-fisheye, last year I used a multiplying filter that multiplies the image in the centre 24 times around the rest of the lens.

I don't believe in limiting yourself to shooting one thing or one way when you're learning. For instance if your interest is shoes, start with tabletop/still life using hot lamps, flashes, maybe even painting with flash light...but then move on to shoes on a model with strobe, using long exposure with flash and hot lights (to have a single frozen image which then blurs), etc. In other words don't just do straight photography but learn to be creative.

You have to have fun while you're learning, and by shooting one thing one way you're not doing that! What do you remember from school, the boring classes, or one class that something unusual was done and you had fun?

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting shoot to your sick or never use your zoom. What I am suggesting that get out and shoot when ever you can with a prime. The prime lets you learn how to frame your subject by moving around, it also usually has at least 2 stops wider aperture then the zooms that the OP has, allowing him to experiment with low light and shallow depth of field. If you shoot with a prime you will begin to visualize the framing and composition before you even bring the camera up to your eye. This: do; adjust; repeat over and over cycle is the way our brain learns especially important for learning visualization skills. When it finally becomes second nature extending it to zooms should be easy.

How many times have you seen a newbie (being kind here) root his feet to the ground and then looking through his lens scanning for something to shoot, zooming in to fill the frame taking the shoot and finally heavy cropping in post to try to make the shoot look interesting

By all means use the zooms when you need the range or the adaptability of wide angle and telephoto. they are an important part of photography.

As a beginner if you get sick of photography then best to move to another hobby.

Forget about equipment.



You have more than enough as it is. A faster lens will not make you a better photographer at this point. Learn how to use your camera, learn about composition. You don't need everything people and companies and magazines and websites will have you believe you need. I landed a rent and bills paying job with a very basic kit.

To chime in here - I have to agree with the above. YOU DON'T NEED $1,000 glass to take great photo's.

Funny enough I was at a certain chain photo store the other day buying some magazines and inquiring about some Nikon lenses where the sales rep (who earlier told me she was a photo student at Seneca) mentioned that she was a "2.8" shooter (?) and would never buy any glass that wasn't at least 2.8 - WTF??? Since when does a lens dictate what kind of photographer you are? LOL. At that point I suggested that there are several great lenses out there that are not as fast as Nikon 2.8 glass - and with digital, you can get away with it. I've gotta say, I've been fortunate enough to make some decent money via photo shoots and most of my earlier pictures were not taken with big-buck glass.

My arsenal is mostly older lenses but thankfully I've learned the limits of each - where I can stretch them and where I get the best balance of composition, sharpness and image separation / depth of field. Anyway, not the rant on, my point is that any glass is going to work if you learn how to compose the right photo. Learn that photographs are not pictures and that some of the greatest photo's of all time were taken with lenses and camera bodies that were not even near the capacity of what we have today.

Bottom-line... take photo's, lots of them. Learn where your lens work best - where they are their worst. Work around that and you'll find that although being a "2.8" person might sound important ... getting the most out of the glass that you have now will make you a MUCH better photographer in the long run so that when you can afford the expensive glass - you'll know how to use it.

agreed about equipment, I see so many beginners with expensive cameras and lenses, better learn the basics of developing, yes you heard it right, digital raw has to be developed just like film, but in a different way. This way you're not limited by equipment output. Great expensive lenses are good, but won't provide you with awesome photoes if you have no idea what you're doing with composition, subject, dof, etc. Look at the very artistic results made by people using 18-55 lenses on XT/d40 etc. Some people with 5d mkII still have boring pictures, even though they use f/1.4 lenses and stuff.

I agree with what everyone says here. Its much more important to think about the composition, the appeal, the framing, and all that good stuff... it practically takes over your eyes I agree, that I look at things with the rule of thirds, but I know sometimes, some images break those rules.

One day, when I grow up, I hope to grow up to be a good photographer like many of you

Random points (actually, more of a defense on expensive equipment)

The reason people get faster and more expensive lenses isn't because it allows you to make beautiful pictures. The reason is that it is versatile, and it allows you to make the pictures that won't be possible otherwise. It is the versatility that you pay for, not artistic skill.

When someone says she or he is a F2.8 shooter, have you thought about the fact that it could be they only shoot indoors? Maybe at no flash events? In that case, it would be strange if they used a F4 lens, no? Would you not agree that they might have a reason for their method of shooting. After all, people concede there are different methods of shooting.

There are two reasons that there are so many great photos on Flickr with shooters with subpar equipment. The first reason is that there are so many photographers, and even by pure 'luck', there would be great shots by people that randomly use the auto button.

The second reason, which applies to those that consistently put out quality photos with crappy equipment, is time. Time spent on making that picture better in post-processing. Like PotatoEye has said, people need to learn to develop 'digital' film.

With those two reasons in mind, there is a reason for why you would want better glass. It saves you time, and allows you to be more versatile, which may give you a shot you wouldn't have otherwise. While you don't need great glass to take great photos, you do need great glass to consistantly take great photos, unless of course, you're under ideal conditions all the time.


As for appeal and stuff like that, can you really be taught those things? It's so biased. All you can do is look at examples and see what you like and adopt those methods. Besides, you obviously thought it was interesting the moment you snapped that photo, so isn't that enough?

everything i learned was from reading online guides, going to tpmg events or just practicing

at tpmg events i would look at other photographer's settings and ask why they would use that Fstop or shutter speed and then shoot using their settings or maybe shoot using one of their angles and then later compare the 2 photos...you would be surprised how different 2 photos can be when shot from the same point of view by 2 different people...composition, focus of the photo, timing, etc.

can't teach art, look at picasso's artwork, to this day i don't see it as art because to me art is something that makes you say WOW out loud when you see it but everyone sees things differently

I think the issue here is about balance. Here are 2 caricatures:

On the one hand, there are the so-called 'purists' who will claim that since the 'great masters' could make great photographs with ISO25 B&W film with grain the size of sand and

I think many people, including myself, need to always realize that there is more to a lens than just wide open... once I started playing with manual lenses, i realized that being wide open all the time isn't the "best shot" or the best way to go about things.

Different situations will call for different equipment and when you have equipment that gives you the versitility to do those things, you're set.
That versitility is what you're really paying for with more expensive glass.

I do envy the 16-35mm 2.8 glass users since that range gives you a lot of play, especially at the 2.8 - 5 range. portrraits, sports, models, etc... a lot of room to play with

Excellent point regarding shooting indoors - however, for the essence of space and reducing text I didn't want to go into to much detail in my above post. The "2.8 shooter" comment was not talking about indoor photography - it was a general, boastful, statement like it was meant to impress me for some reason. As for shooting indoors, with digital, I am constantly shooting 4 - 5,6 without a flash. 2.8 has such a shallow focusing area that I avoid it most of the time. While wide-open, fast lenses have their place, I think that the "center-point" focus is as overused - almost as much as the overprocessed look that seems to be popping up ever since George Fulton made it popular in advertising 2-years ago.

While there are many-many different methods of photography, I truly believe that we are somewhat brainwashed via advertising that we need to have the latest and fastest glass. The truth is that unless it's for a specific purpose... it's not needed. I just went through one of my last shoots just for reference. The images were primarily shot indoors and I would estimate that less then 10% of the pics were shot at 2.8. Most were 5,6 / 8... and the client was more then happy with the results. While-yes, I have some really nice glass in my collection, it didn't start that way - and I learned a heck-of-a-lot with my less-expensive "slower" glass. My favorite lens is still my 35-135 3.5 Nikor lens. Gives me great range and the glass is actually really good.

if you want to become a competent carpenter, it's more important to spend your time building things than it is to have the 'best' tools...

if you want to become a competent photographer (ie. creating the types of images you envision in your mind's eye), then spend your energy and time on making images...

a craftsmen learns to make the most of the tools he has in his tool kit, and only through using your tools do you begin to understand it's capabilities and limitations... DO NOT BLINDLY ACCEPT OPINIONS OF OTHERS AS FACT... once you've mastered your tools, come to understand what you can or cannot do with it and realize the types of images YOU want to make, then (and arguable, only then) is it time to refine or expand your selection of tools...

Stealing what Ken said and his analogy of the carpenter. Taking two pieces of wood and nailing them together doesn't make you a cabinet maker or woodworker. You have the tools but you need to learn the logistics/rules of the trade and set your foundation. I've met so many new photographers who don't know how a camera's meter works etc. They take the odd nice pic and what they can't accomplish, they rely on Photoshop to save the image and when all else fails, they convert the pic to B&W and call it art.

If you are totally green about what is an f-stop, how to control motion or use it to enhance a photo based on shutter speed, the rules of lighting, basic guidelines and rules of a good framing/composition. Read, read, read some more and better yet, sign up for a intro course at your local community college.

Everyone says to shoot LOTS and this is true BUT if you don't know what makes a photo stand out from others then you're basically just playing the odds. Learn the technical side first and then everything will fall into place but that's not to say you should shoot less. If you want a harsh critique, don't ask your close friends. The majority of them will tell you that it's good to avoid disappointing you! As others have mentioned, YOU be THE most critical judge of your work but this can only go so far if you don't know the basics that make up a good shot from a great shot.

Once you know the basics and "rules" of photography, break 'em! Think outside the box. Develop that artistic eye. If everyone is shooting straight on with the subject, pick a different angle and get a totally new perspective. This will grow on you in time as your experience grows.

Don't worry about gear for now. You've got some good glass. When I show up for a shoot and I've got multiple camera bodies and a bunch of lenses etc. some people think that they need ALL that gear to get great shots. That's 15yrs of me collecting gear but I started out with a cheap film SLR and 2 lenses. I'm in no way implying that I'm the bee's knees and THE next Avedon. Far from it. I'm just laying out what experience has taught me.

As for me, my dad was quite the shutter bug and I've managed to kill almost all the cameras he owned (and got my share of spankings in the process) as a kid growing up. First camera I mucked around with was my dad's 120mm twin reflex Yashica when I was 10. Then my first camera was a 110mm point and click. The bug never hit me until I won a Kodak sponsored photo contest from a landscape shot I took with a simple 35mm point & shoot film camera. A few months after that I bought my first SLR and the rest is history.