Toronto Photography Meetup Group

In order to avoid writing my research papers, I have been daydreaming quite a bit about buying a new camera. It was the 7D for a while, then the 5D mkII, but after reading on dpreview today that it's not so great for fast action, I'm leaning more towards the 7D ($1000 price difference helps, too)

My last camera body purchase was a Rebel XT back in... 2005! eep!

So here's the deal.. I've been working as a photographer consistently over the last three years and am looking at pursuing photography further when I finish my BA next year. I know I need a good camera, and am looking at generating a bit more money from photography over the next year (getting into self employed portrait stuff and what not) and am spending the summer on Baffin Island, so these are things I'd like to have a better camera for (I do have access to L lenses and speedlights through work).

I need something that is FAST. I mostly do photojournalism work, and even when I borrowed a 5D this weekend I found it obnoxiously slow. I would also like something with video. I also find myself having to shoot without a flash in low light conditions on a very regular basis.

Price is an issue, to say the least. (Loan! yay!)

So, self indulgent rambling aside, I've looked through the forum at your reviews of the 7D and haven't found too too many, especially not recently. Anyway, thoughts, suggestions? yay or nay?

I spent the Fall avoiding writing papers and thinking about the 7D. Got it in November, it was a slow start. It's my first DSLR so there was the learning curve, I'm still near the bottom of that curve. I also had a tech issue with my Sigma lenses - front focusing. Now that they're fixed things are going better. It is definitely a fast camera. I've had it out in the snow and rain so I appreciate the weather sealing. If you look on POTN you'll find no shortage of sharp image samples and no shortage of people who haven't managed to get a sharp image out of it - most of these soft images end up being down to the user. I fell into that category myself.

Full frame is the holy grail be all end all and with no question delivers better image quality. But, that said, the 7D is constantly compared to the 5DII, it loses usually but the comparison itself is the compliment.

Beyond the speed what would you like to know specifically?

I don't know, I guess I'm just concerned about spending that much money, especially considering I don't really have that much money. So I want to feel super confident about my decision.

I'm admittedly still trying to figure out the advantages of full frame beyond the lenses actually being what they're supposed to be.

Lower noise. And resolution with full frame.

Think point and shoot 100% crop vs. your XTi. Then expand that to full frame. Granted, the effect isn't as dramatic, but it's there.

As for resolution vs. speed, that's been an ongoing debate for a long time. You usually sacrifice one for the other. Hence why the 1 series is for speed, 1Ds is for resolution.

At least, that's my understanding.

How big are you printing your images? Or how much cropping are you going to do? How many fps do you need?

There's always Ken Rockwell's intro to FF vs crop. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm

Something you can be super confident about is the 7D really is a great camera. It's very well regarded, well built and gets great results - in the right hands anyway.

I've had my 7D for about 6 months now - over 10,000 clicks and hours of video, and it's my "go to" camera. I also have a 1Ds and 1Dm2. I also still have my old Rebel XT.... now my wife's backup, I got her a 7D as well.

It's fast, responsive, AF tracks very well, good high ISO ability, has all the controls in the right places, and video is a very nice touch. It's not a substitute for a camcorder, but rather a movie camera.

I'm mostly a wildlife/bird shooter, but I've done a number of weddings - none yet with the 7D, but I'm looking forward to give it a chance.

Other nice handling features are:
- very large viewfinder, larger than my 1Dm2, smaller than the 1Ds, you won't want to go back to the Rebel XT after this
- 3 inch LCD
- front, rear control wheels + joystick + separate LiveView & Movie buttons
- good weather sealing, I've been out in rain, snow storms, 50km winds, -20 temps etc
- very good battery-life, good enough for a few thousand clicks in sub-zero temps for 5-6 hrs
- 3 custom settings, C1, C2 and C3, I can flick btwn indoor and outdoor settings
- lots lighter than my 1Ds or 1Dm2

Negatives:
- AF in Liveview or Movie mode is pathetic
- Automatic gain on audio recording in movie mode, I wish I could turn it off
- Auto ISO not configurable, the new 550D/T2i has a better implementation
- I love the vertical grip on my 1Ds and 1Dm2, and have never been impressed with add-on battery grips.
- wish the chipped batteries weren't so expensive
- DOF is a lot deeper than the 1Ds, but then again, I can always use the 1Ds. The price of used FF35 DSLRs are going to drop below $1000- soon.

Hmm the article is very convincing..
I'd like to print things large.. not huge, but 12x18 would be nice.. I'm not printing that large with the XT, of course..
I don't usually do much cropping, nothing terribly significant, anyway.
I'm not sure about fps as I don't pay much attention to that.. but fast. I can't stand waiting for the camera to write files while I watch action pass me by.




I don't understand what the issue is with automatic gain?

How do you find the audio recording quality is in movie mode?

If it gets quiet the camera will amplify the mic input and if it gets loud it will lower the gain. It's a terrible built-in mic. Usable only in a pinch. The new 5D MkII firmware has manual volume controls however.

Given that, for serious audio recording most people will look at an external recorder or external mic+preamp.

funny i always find mr rockwell's review hilarious... I only take his advice as joke more than actual facts... (don't get me wrong, some articles there are pretty informative)

1 series are good, but the 7D is not weak.. after selling my old 1d3 and picked up the 7D, i find 7D have better advantage over the 1D3, noise is similar at 3200+, integrated speedlite transmitter, and i always like 1.6x crop over x1.3, but if i want better DOF and noise control for shooting still subjects I can always pull the 5d mk2 out... of course if budget allow me i would like to get the 1d4 as well!

I print posters in a regular basis (for myself and clients), even 24x36 prints from my 40D which is 10.1mp are perfectly fine since they are mostly mount on wall..

I read a magazine that have an in-depth article explain crop vs full frame but i forgot which magazine.. i'll post it up later when i ask my friend about the magainze..

Sorry was not clear as to why this might be bad in my previous post. But basically if you're using these cameras with auto gain in a quiet environment you're going to just pick up a lot of background noises as the camera tries to pick up anything.

Since both of your option is Canon I'll assume you're already has lenses for Canon, otherwise you can also look at the other camp.

7d is probably good enough for starter, as long as there are enough light. so it really depends on what your purpose is for. It's quite a bit faster than a 5D2 with better focus options.

On the other hand, a FF has something magical to it, hard to describe what it is. My wife said the picture has a more 3D feel to it. So if your target career is more portrait/people oriented, then the choice it is.

That's interesting.. I shot the first photo that comes up here - http://hollynorris.ca/ (the photo with the four guys - you can hit pause at the bottom) with a 5D a couple days ago (first time using full frame) and I certainly see what you mean (at least I think I do).. not to mention we were in a narrow alleyway, so being able to use the 16-35mm to its full potential was great.
However, I am after speed.. but I think once I'm actually making a bit of money and have paid back debts then I'll look into getting something full frame.

"Good enough for a starter".... understatement of the year with a considerable chance of maintaining that status for the rest of the year. And you make it sound as if it has poor performance in low light which is false.

Everyone has different standards, sounds like Holly needs fast AF, which I don't think is so crucial for journalism, but who knows. I am debating between old 5D and 7D myself

I'm a noob and I luv my 7D. (dabbling in sports photography)
From what I understand, 5D is more geared towards potrait work. 5Dmark3 will be impressive when it comes out... but who knows when that is gonna happen.

I'm waiting for the 5Dmk5.

There's no denying FF is better, how much better for you is what needs to be determined. I'd love a 5DII (frankly it'd suit me better than the 7D as I'm not all about the speed) but that extra chunk of change is really not worth it for me and I'm certainly not limited by my 7D. There's certainly an aura and elitism attached to FF that is arguably overblown for the needs of most people that make the argument. For the pros making those large prints consistently and are after a particular depth of field, which is very specific, and requires certain lenses as much as certain bodies let us not forget, it is worth it - but they know exactly what they're after in a shot most of the time. Looking at this stuff becomes a slippery slope between the camera and the photographer.

If you're looking for a fast durable camera that performs well in almost every situation on a budget, maybe not the best but certainly not the worst, the 7D is arguably the best choice out there.

Auto-gain tries to make a consistent sound level, but that's not always what you want. You'd like a whisper to be a whisper, and a shout to be a shout.

With AGC, as a person walks towards you or away, you lose the effect of their footsteps increasing or decreasing in volume.

Otherwise, with a Rode Videomic it's okay. Without an external mic, it sounds like a typical camcorder. I have an Edirol R09 for recording sound, but having the choice of controlling my levels in-camera would be good too.

+1 with you on this point ions.

There are who look at FF cameras admiring the IQ, the low light noise performance may be comparing that against a crop body. The quality is better but is it worth that much more than a 50D? 7D? Maybe, maybe not.

Holly, I hope my example below can help you decide on a body

What I find in a FF camera that benefits me the most : weighed in order

1x FOV: The focal lengths of these lenses were designed for full frame and they are perfect for me. That being said, the full frame perspective is the most important thing to me that a crop body can not reproduce. Even match FL to equiv FL does not give you the same perspective.

DOF: In a short sentence... Depth of field on FF can be narrowly beautiful!

Dynamic range: Depending on what you shoot, I've always loved strong contrast in my images. I want to preserve as much details in the high and low key areas and the larger FF sensor with larger photo diodes does this better than the smaller APS-C

From these three attributes, I will do what it takes to get a FF camera

Where does IQ and noise fit in? To me it's just a secondary bonus

Now to make your decision more harder. I have considered the 7D... for images that I don't care so much about perspective, such as shooting sports or subjects that are further away such as scenery etc.

The 5D/5D2, the outer focus points are ok. I found the 50D better. I believe the 50D outer points are all crosspoint AF while the 5D/5D2 is not.

But does this stop me from shooting sports or faster action photography? Nope. But I have a lesser keeper rate.

While this is just the way I use a FF, each photographers will have different priorities and needs.

Good luck with your decision!

This is not a negative. It's just a preference. At my last wedding Gig, I used the 7D (over my FF body) to capture some of the dancing in dim lighting, as I wanted more DOF @ fast aperture values. It's worked out beautifully. Same thing with opera. There are plenty of occasions where a crop body that entails greater DOF is very useful. Cheers.

^ Very good point Sabesh. The ability to shoot large apertures without the thin DOF "penalty".. makes low light shooting more forgiving. That's still my greatest challenge, to shoot f1.4 with the centre high-precision focus point and recomposing without taking my subject out of focus.. easier on a crop, that's for sure.

I've dreamt of the 7D as well, but for financial reasons and the fact that I generally don't get paid for photography I just can't justify it for myself. However here are a couple thoughts I had about the price point which made me think that it's really worth the extra money vs other bodies:

1) The shutter life is rated at 150,000, which is 50% more than the previous generation of xxD series, and 200% more than the previous generation of Rebels (the newest Rebels are rated 150,000 as well). So, I'd say you'd at least get 50% more life than your previous generation (including the 5D mk1).

2) It also has built-in wireless flash commander, so it's like a free STE-2 which adds another few hundred to the value.

I bought a 7D today! Thanks for all your help!
I'll have to post some more feedback after I've had the chance to actually use it.

One initial thing - I am entirely blown away by how much memory can be taken up by just a few minutes of HD video. Insane!

Congrats! Looking forward to seeing your pictures with it. Cheers.

Congrats on the new toy!
Good choice!

Congratulations! I hope it works out well for you.

Very nice! Go get yourself some 16GB memory cards. haha.

Congrats Holly.

haha yeah, I was talked into getting a 16GB extreme 3 too